Комментарии к фотографиям из города Каррара

Руль справа, что любопытно.

Так в профиле ж есть примечание "До 1980 — Alfa Romeo 920 AF/Menarin". Вот как раз в 1980 году кузов и поменяли.

Цитата (Udaloy, 03.02.2024):
> Ну судя по всему тут имела место млдернизация со сменой кузова

Однозначно, дизайн передка гораздо позднее 1955 года

Самый обычный ЛИАЗ-677, но с рогами

В прошлом уже много раз поднимался вопрос, поэтому вот сумма на русском языке:

МЕСТО ВОДИТЕЛЯ СПРАВА В ИТАЛЬЯНСКИХ АВТОБУСАХ И ТРОЛЛЕЙБУСАХ

Правый руль был распространён на итальянских машинах с момента изобретения автомобиля, причём не только на общественном транспорте. Данная традиция продолжалась в течение длительного периода даже после того, как все итальянские провинции перешли на правостороннее движение в 1923 году (до этого левостороннее и правостороннее движение различались от провинции к провинции). Обратите внимание, что расположение места водителя справа в Италии не обязательно связано с практикой левостороннего и правостороннего движения на дороге.

Есть версия, что итальянские водители любят социализироваться. Руль справа - чтобы удобнее было поговорить с прохожими на обочине, а в случае общественного транспорта - с пассажирами на остановке ) Ещё есть довольно распространенная версия, что сидя за рулём справа, удобнее цокать языком и щипать девушек на тротуаре за зад, быстро проезжая мимо ))

Говоря серьёзно, традиция сохранялась т.к. сидя справа удобнее контролировать габарит дороги при разъезде на старых узких итальянских улочках и дорогах, особенно на узких горных дорогах. Преимущественно правый руль оставался именно на крупногабаритных машинах, на грузовиках и междугородных автобусах. Тоже самое, кстати, довольно долго продержалось в Швейцарии. Примечательно, что правый руль при правостороннем движении считался аспектом умения хорошо водить машину, и также встречался на итальянских машинах дорогих престижных марок. На общественный транспорт традиция перекочевала по тем же причинам, только в данном случае было удобнее контролировать габарит подъезда к остановкам, а также при движении по узким улицам в старых городах с узкими тротуарами.

Правый руль в Италии ушёл по мере всемирной стандартизации, улучшения итальянских дорог в т.ч. на предмет ширины начиная с 1960-х гг., и после введения национального техстандарта для машин в 1959 г. На сколько понимаю, конкретно на общественный транспорт данный техстандарт ещё какой-то период времени не распространялся, и переход на левый руль на автобусах и троллейбусах произошёл позже остальных видов транспорта.

See a summary on the subjects for future references. The question has came up too many times in the past:

DRIVER'S POSITION ON RIGHT SIDE IN ITALIAN BUSES AND TROLLEYBUSES

Driver's controls positioning on the right side used to be common on Italian cars in the past from the inception of motorized transportation, not only on public transport. The tradition continued for a long period after all Italian provinces switched to the right hand traffic (RHT) in 1923 (before that, the rules on LHT vs RHT differed from province to province). Note, that positioning of driver's controls on the right in Italy did not necessarily relate to LHT vs. RHT practices on the road.

There is a version of an explanation for the practice, that Italian drivers like to socialize. When the steering wheel was positioned on the right, it made more convenient to talk with passers-by on the side of the road, and in the case of public transport - with passengers at the bus stops ) There is also a fairly common version of the explanation, that when driving on the right, it was more convenient to click a tongue and pinch girls on the butt on the sidewalk while quickly driving by ))

Seriously speaking, the tradition was preserved because when sitting on the right it was more convenient to control the road clearance when passing on old narrow Italian streets and roads, especially on narrow mountain roads. Predictably, the driver's position on the right predominantly remained in large vehicles, trucks and intercity buses. The same arrangement, by the way, lasted for quite a long time in Switzerland. It is noteworthy that driver's position on the right when driving under RHD was considered in the past an aspect of the driver's superior skills, and was also found on Italian passenger cars of expensive prestigious brands. The tradition migrated to the public transportation for the same reasons, only in this case it was more convenient to control the alignment of the vehicles with the bus stops, as well as when driving via narrow streets in old cities with narrow sidewalks.

Driver's position on the right in Italy finally disappeared as a result of worldwide standardization with regard to RHT, dramatic improvements of Italian roads including the width of roads since the 1960s, and the introduction of a national technical standard for cars in 1959. As far as I understand, the latter technical standard did not apply specifically to public transport for some period of time after 1959, and the transition to repositioning of driver's seat to the left on buses and trolleybuses occurred later than in other types of transport.

Thanks for the detailed explanation Yury and Alex, a curious and quite lasting artifact indeed.

Quote (Trolleybus Man, 03.02.2024):
> So a Portesi re-body of this Carrara Alfa trolleybus cannot be considered as a separate model, since it is still an Alfa on paper

Thank you for this long and interesting explanation.
For clarity, I will still introduce an additional type (as a variant) with the distinction "modernised".
I also found additional explanations on the Italian Wiki page and will take a closer look at this as well.

Quote (A. N., 03.02.2024):
> Still it is very curious how it ended up having the right-hand drive - was it some kind of experiment?

It has not been an experiment, I suspect rather a rule.
I have older photos of other Italian cities. Here I will find out further if this was the case on all older type vehicles, but in Milan I have also seen this:

https://transphoto.org/photo/1352127/

In Europe, some sweeper vehicles also have the steering wheel on the right side: this is allowed, to give drivers better visibility. Obviously, off topic, but still a picture:

https://www.afvalgids.nl/schone-stad-doo...achine/

This may have been one of the reasons with the older trolleybuses in Italy, perhaps in combination with a safer way for the driver to get off if he had to bring the trolley back against the wire. Did any buses exist with a separate entrance for drivers? I can't confirm it but for older types it could well be the case.

I have suggested some possibilities, experts can examine this in more detail.

Цитата (A. N., 03.02.2024):
> Thank you for the story. Still it is very curious how it ended up having the right-hand drive - was it some kind of experiment? Or maybe a body built for some RHD country order that didn't make it to the customer and then got reused?

Hello A. N., this issue with regard to the Italian buses came up a few times in the past on this site. Perhaps the best explanation can be found here:
https://transphoto.org/photo/1677127/#3011276

Thank you for the story. Still it is very curious how it ended up having the right-hand drive - was it some kind of experiment? Or maybe a body built for some RHD country order that didn't make it to the customer and then got reused?

Еще нордтрол 120 напоминает

I can tell you why such bodyworks were common

Back in the day, Italy had a massive bodywork industry alongside a very big number bus and chassis manufacturers

Pretty much anyone could make a bus, if you wanted, be it a Lancia, Alfa, Fiat, you name it.

But when the big manufacturers, like the ones cited above, stopped making buses, this meant that it was even harder to maintain them, bodywork-wise at least, so in some cases transport agencies relied on separate bodywork manufacturers to replace the original body. And you had a lot of options, such as Portesi, Bredabus, CAM, Macchi, Viberti, Mauri, etc.

In the article that was shared in the comment above, it basically said that only a handful of Carrara's Alfa trolleybuses, out of the entire series, were re-bodied by Portesi in 1980, it doesn't specify why, but most likely it was done in an effort to extend their lifespan for a few more years before the system was closed. (also that style of orange blocky bodywork was the standard on almost all Italian buses from the late 70s to early 90s)

Other reasons as for why trolleybuses were re-bodied can be different depending on the overall context either of a single vehicle, a series of vehicles, or the entire system.

A new body may be given:
-To a vehicle that was involved in an accident and sustained damage
-As part of refurbishment
-To comply with new safety and service requirements
-To complete a chassis kit

So a Portesi re-body of this Carrara Alfa trolleybus cannot be considered as a separate model, since it is still an Alfa on paper

Whilst models such as Socimi F8843 are based on the Effeuno chassis, but are considered as separate models since they were mostly done from scratch

You are free to correct me if I'm wrong

Если бы Альтерна была троллейбусом))

Ну судя по всему тут имела место млдернизация со сменой кузова

Excellent comment.

http://www.clamfer.it/14_Mezzi%20gommati...ini.htm

I will investigate this later. Personally, I have too little knowledge about these types of vehicles and trust the data from the database.
I also need to find out whether they were conversions/modernisations or effectively new vehicles, where I am also in doubt about the year of construction.

Как такой квадратный дизайн мог быть в 1955 году? Почему праворульный?

Дизайн конечно... Но кстати, че-то похож на ПАЗ Сити-Макс 9.