Katinka and Dear czech Colleagues!

Maybe you know why the Prague tram equipped with only one row of seats along each side?

What is the reason for the dismantling of 8 seats in each of T3 cars (34/31 vs 23)?

I have heard and read, this is to provide more space for people atanding. However, many routes in Prague are high frequency and short distance, not long routes outside of cities. In this case, yes it nakes sense. Perhaps, soneone know another reason and may give a statement too.

Цитата (Katinka, 27.04.2016):
> However, many routes in Prague are high frequency and short distance, not long routes outside of cities.

Thx, Katinka!
I agree with you - there is a few illogical decision in the presence of accurate timetable Prague trams and a large number of cars.

Тhis is yet another Prague enigma, inexplicable for Ukrainian Tatra-fans ... is the same as the absence of high-voltage cable on the systems of cars (in case that 2 and more trams move simultaneously.
Іn Kiev it is done like this - http://transphoto.ru/photo/898459/).

Цитата (ObolonsSKY, 29.04.2016):
>
> Тhis is yet another Prague enigma, inexplicable for Ukrainian Tatra-fans ... is the same as the absence of high-voltage cable on the systems of cars (in case that 2 and more trams move simultaneously.
> Іn Kiev it is done like this - http://transphoto.ru/photo/898459/).

No any enigma :) Its explicable item. Its only technical feature.

Most of the exSoviet Tatra cities using high-voltage cables and 1 pantograph on the 2-3 cars systems from the beginning of the 70's.

The first T3 systems were operated without this cable but with 2 pantographs like in Prague. It was the end of the 60's.

Also note that Dresden tested Tatras systems the same way - with high-voltage cable.

And close up in Prague, just so :) http://transphoto.ru/photo/901501/

Цитата (Tatrowitsch, 29.04.2016):
> Its only technical feature.

I agree. Вut use such imperfect scheme with 2 pantographs for obvious reasons, is a strange - at least contributes to increased wear of transport equipment.

so I think an enigma is that the Czechs have not applied high-voltage cables in its cars.

PS: on high-speed tram's lines in Kiev is also used scheme without high-voltage cables...

Цитата (ObolonsSKY, 29.04.2016):
>
> I agree. Вut use such imperfect scheme with 2 pantographs for obvious >reasons, is a strange - at least contributes to increased wear of transport equipment.

Pantograph only...
I don't exactly because of that have a question: what equipment increasing wear?

> so I think an enigma is that the Czechs have not applied high-voltage cables in its cars.

I think if Czechs had much troubles
with system "no high-voltage cable and 2 pantographs" they would find the solution ) And probably it would be scheme with this cable.

> PS: on high-speed tram's lines in Kiev is also used scheme without high-voltage cables...

Yes ) I think this scheme has no any serious negative effects.

Цитата (Tatrowitsch, 29.04.2016):
> question: what equipment increasing wear?

I meant that increases the wear of the contact network and the pantograph at least. And increases exactly twice...


Цитата (Tatrowitsch, 29.04.2016):
> I think this scheme has no any serious negative effects.

Kiev has a simpler explanation - for the personall of Shevchenka's depot this method is more convenient (some ancient traditions))).

As well Liberec is using the system with 2 pantographs up and the method with the cable - I have never seen anywhere in Czech, Germany. I have only seen such on photos of places in Russia/Ukraina. I think, there is not a big problem with "wear" of pantogaph, or at least not so much, that it would be worth, to take the effort und modify the trams with high-voltage cables.

Цитата (Katinka, 29.04.2016):
> I think, there is not a big problem with "wear" of pantogaph, or at least not so much, that it would be worth, to take the effort und modify the trams with high-voltage cables.

Of course this is not a big problem.
One reason for the use of high-voltage cables in Kiev is probably the savings (left over from the "evil empire") and the formation of "tails" - ie, If in Prague trailer (second) car is completely independent and can move on their own, so the Kiev wagon №2 often devoid operating controls and depot workers easier once build the cable than regularly maintained second pantograph. It is only my suggested, maybe I'm wrong.

I heard (but Not sure it is 100% valid) that you can disconnect them in Prague and each can go alone. Or with another. Same I have heard, that theoretical you can put all of a same type with another, but "synchronisation" not always each with each works. For unknown reasons. Again, I just heard! I do not have an idea, reason technical or nalfunction of tram combined with impossibility to find error of depot worker.

Цитата (ObolonsSKY, 29.04.2016):

>
> I meant that increases the wear of the contact network and the pantograph at least. And increases exactly twice...

Ok, clear. May be.
But I've never heard this from the tram company's employees ))

>
> Kiev has a simpler explanation - for the personall of Shevchenka's depot this method is more convenient (some ancient traditions))).

Traditions are saint :)

Цитата (ObolonsSKY, 30.04.2016):

>
> One reason for the use of high-voltage cables in Kiev is probably the savings (left over from the "evil empire") and the formation of "tails" - ie, If in Prague trailer (second) car is completely independent and can move on their own, so the Kiev wagon №2 often devoid operating controls and depot workers easier once build the cable than regularly maintained second pantograph. It is only my suggested, maybe I'm wrong.

In Russia much "tails" have no full working driver's panel (sorry, forgot how it calls right) Some buttons were got out. "Tails" are always tails :)

But this wagon can go independent. For example in Yekaterinburg it happens in the days-off or holidays only (when "heads" operates on the routes).
Tail's pantographs are in good condition and you can use it any moment.

"Tail" running close to depot looks like this:
http://transphoto.ru/photo/874532/

Цитата (Katinka, 29.04.2016):
> As well Liberec is using the system with 2 pantographs up and the method with the cable - I have never seen anywhere in Czech, Germany.

In Liberec systems go with 2 pantographs. They use only low-voltage cabel like in whole Czech Republic. No high-voltage "trunks" :)

Цитата (Katinka, 30.04.2016):
> I heard (but Not sure it is 100% valid) that you can disconnect them in Prague and each can go alone. Or with another. Same I have heard, that theoretical you can put all of a same type with another, but "synchronisation" not always each with each works. For unknown reasons. Again, I just heard! I do not have an idea, reason technical or nalfunction of tram combined with impossibility to find error of depot worker.

Yes! Right, there is no any serious problems to disconnect the cars and allow "tail" run independent :)

The synchronisation problem is typical for the cars with accelerators.
Thats the reason why in most Russian Tatra cities systems constant. And as I wrote in previous meassage it diconnected on days-off and holidays.

Цитата (Katinka, 29.04.2016):
> you can disconnect them in Prague and each can go alone.

Аs far as I know, it's true.

Цитата (Katinka, 29.04.2016):
> but "synchronisation" not always each with each works.

Іt is true because trams also have sympathy)))

Цитата (Katinka, 29.04.2016):
> I do not have an idea, reason technical or nalfunction of tram combined with impossibility to find error of depot worker.

I'm sorry, not quite understand what was meant.

I try to explain:
I heard, that same type of tram - if both function - can be coupled together. Like T3SUCS. And it does not matter, which tram with which. You can use them together, or each alone. In Prague that goes so. Theoretically. Practically, they do of course not switch all the time trams. But, sometimes. It makes it more flexible for example on routes with lesser demand.

But, I got told it is just theory! In practical, it does not work always, to just any T3SUCS with any other T3SUCS. It sometimes does not work "good".

But, this is against any logic. So I mean, if it does not work - and depot workers do not find a reason why, it means a) tram has technical failure or b) depot worker too stupid to find error.

Цитата (Katinka, 30.04.2016):
> But, I got told it is just theory! In practical, it does not work always, to just any T3SUCS with any other T3SUCS. It sometimes does not work "good".

I understood.

Аctually is not always any T3SUCS "is friends" with any other T3SUCS.
As far as I know, in practical depot workerd selected trams for their connection to the system.
І.e. sometimes identical cars insufficiently synchronized, which prevents them from to work well in tandem.



Цитата (Tatrowitsch, 30.04.2016):
> But this wagon can go independent. For example in Yekaterinburg it happens in the days-off or holidays only (when "heads" operates on the routes).
> Tail's pantographs are in good condition and you can use it any moment.

Yes often this wagon can go some independent. But because they have no lights, mirror and some of the controls, their movement is carried out maximum of the depot.
http://transphoto.ru/photo/840145/ http://transphoto.ru/photo/862157/ http://transphoto.ru/photo/60131/ http://transphoto.ru/photo/860619/
In my opinion in Kiev wagons attached to each other and are not separated cleanly. Over the years go the same pair of wagons.

Цитата (Tatrowitsch, 30.04.2016):
> "Tails" are always tails :)

The best variant of "tails", in my opinion, such as Germany TB4D: 1. no cabin's diaphragm = additional space in forward part of salon http://transphoto.ru/photo/382586/; 2. availability of the control panel, a special cover closed. http://transphoto.ru/photo/352218/ http://transphoto.ru/photo/744201/

Цитата (ObolonsSKY, 30.04.2016):
>
> Yes often this wagon can go some independent. But because they have no lights, mirror and some of the controls, their movement is carried out maximum of the depot.

If you are interested we have 2 systems which can be disconnected and use independent. Its 625+626, 627+628.
Here is how looks 628 )
http://transphoto.ru/photo/450051/

>
> In my opinion in Kiev wagons attached to each other and are not separated cleanly. Over the years go the same pair of wagons.

The same situation in my city. Most of the trams were coupled soon after city got them from Prague. There are 30-40 years old systems :)
And the winner is 41 years old system, the one and only.

Zitat (Tatrowitsch, 30.04.2016):
> The same situation in my city. Most of the trams were coupled soon after city got them from Prague. There are 30-40 years old systems :)
> And the winner is 41 years old system, the one and only.

This, is truely amazing for me, such old trams and still in everyday use. Trams, that in cities in Czech, Germany are either scrapped long ago or in museum.

Цитата (Katinka, 30.04.2016):
> such old trams and still in everyday use. Trams, that in cities in Czech, Germany are either scrapped long ago or in museum.

I disagree.
In Germany, Au and Switzerland fine used cars, built in 1960-1970's.
http://transphoto.ru/photo/660354/ http://transphoto.ru/photo/876532/ http://transphoto.ru/photo/901596/ http://transphoto.ru/photo/828599/

Many upgraded Prague T3 as in accordance with documents are considered to built in the 1960s.
http://transphoto.ru/photo/863442/ http://transphoto.ru/photo/897991/

Sorry, I meant Tatra original with accelerator! These ones not in Germany. Not Switzerland. Praha, only T3 SUCS. And the many modifications which will still be there for years. And Zürich, sorry it look something else..

And not as good as Tatra never !!! :)) http://transphoto.ru/photo/876532/

Цитата (Tatrowitsch, 30.04.2016):
> And the winner is 41 years old system, the one and only.

The same wagon in Kiev http://transphoto.ru/photo/820928/

The interesting thing is that 5905 is the "a head" and the fact that there are wagons two- and three doors in this system!

PS: Katinka probably linear wagons with two doors and almoust 40 seats have never seen ...

Цитата (Katinka, 01.05.2016):
> I meant Tatra original with accelerator!

Oh, this variant really still use only in ex-socialistic block country (exSoviet and Zagreb, Bucharest (T4) so on). http://transphoto.ru/photo/249518/

Цитата (ObolonsSKY, 01.05.2016):
>
> PS: Katinka probably linear wagons with two doors and almoust 40 seats have never seen ...

In original 2 door T3SU 38 seats :)
34 in 3 door )

Цитата (Tatrowitsch, 01.05.2016):
> In original 2 door T3SU 38 seats :)

I know it. I'm writing - "almost 40".

Цитата (ObolonsSKY, 02.05.2016):
>
> I know it. I'm writing - "almost 40".

Sorry, missed this word